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1 celticdragon  Tue, May 17, 2011 9:29:16am

My God.

He went downstairs to see if an intruder was there and the police obliterate him.

I am sick of this police/military mindset shit.

2 wrenchwench  Tue, May 17, 2011 9:35:42am

re: #1 celticdragon

My God.

He went downstairs to see if an intruder was there and the police obliterate him.

I am sick of this police/military mindset shit.

From an article three days earlier:

Guerena told his wife and son to hide inside a closet and he grabbed the AR-15 rifle, his wife said.

He probably knew it was SWAT out there. There are still many problems with this case, but it does seem that the shooters had a weapon pointed at them. One of the problems is that at first they claimed he shot at them, then they retracted the claim, so all their claims need to be verified.

3 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Tue, May 17, 2011 9:46:44am
nor even if this was the correct house although it was the correct block -- they searched numerous other houses in the neighborhood on the same warrant.

I can see the application for that warrant now, "Well your honor we have heard from our informants that there is a dealer on that street so we want to raid all the houses with "No Knock" warrants, just sign here OK?"

4 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Tue, May 17, 2011 9:58:20am

re: #2 wrenchwench

From an article three days earlier:

He probably knew it was SWAT out there. There are still many problems with this case, but it does seem that the shooters had a weapon pointed at them. One of the problems is that at first they claimed he shot at them, then they retracted the claim, so all their claims need to be verified.

If you were a Marine with a semi-automatic rifle for home defense at hand and your wife told you that there were men outside at 3:00am wouldn't you grab your gun and go to investigate? Perhaps you might even show yourself to the people outside through a window or doorway while looking outside to try to figure out what was going on while holding your weapon.

Then you were shot 60 times by the people outside your home, now would that be your fault wrenchwench or would it be the fault of the people who shot you?

5 wrenchwench  Tue, May 17, 2011 10:09:16am

re: #4 ausador

If you were a Marine with a semi-automatic rifle for home defense at hand and your wife told you that there were men outside at 3:00am wouldn't you grab your gun and go to investigate? Perhaps you might even show yourself to the people outside through a window or doorway while looking outside to try to figure out what was going on while holding your weapon.

Then you were shot 60 times by the people outside your home, now would that be your fault wrenchwench or would it be the fault of the people who shot you?

I don't claim to have the answers, but the sheriff's department says they used lights and sirens. It was not a no-knock warrent. And there were three other houses within a quarter mile on the warrant, not the whole neighborhood.

The case stinks, Guerena should not be dead, but there's no benefit to criticizing incorrectly.

6 Romantic Heretic  Tue, May 17, 2011 10:42:21am

Thinking of a line from a David Drake novel: "That's right, sir. You always have to know exactly what you're doing before you decide to use guns."

7 Randall Gross  Tue, May 17, 2011 10:51:24am

There's something weird here and I think it would serve us well to keep our emotions in check on this since I suspect that we will be following this case and others like it for a while. Lots of good discussions to be had by all.
In other news in a party line committee vote recommended by the NRA the house committee blocked a Democrat amendment that would make it illegal to sell guns to someone on the terror watch lists.

We can stop them from flying, but not from purchasing handguns... there's lots of pros and cons on both sides of that one as well.

8 harrylook  Tue, May 17, 2011 11:23:07am

Fuck the war on drugs.

9 APox  Tue, May 17, 2011 12:24:52pm

Police will now continue to lie out their ass to cover their case. Nothing will be disclosed and nothing will be done.

10 wrenchwench  Tue, May 17, 2011 12:30:01pm

re: #9 APox

Police will now continue to lie out their ass to cover their case. Nothing will be disclosed and nothing will be done.

At least until the investigation is concluded.

Dupnik won't release more info about SWAT shooting of Tucson man

The Pima County Sheriff’s Department will release no more information about the circumstances surrounding the killing of Jose Guerena during the serving of a search warrant by the department’s SWAT officers May 5, at his home.

Two weeks after the shooting the department has yet to disclose exactly what they were searching for in the Guerena home as well as three other residences in in the area that were part of drug investigation. Court documents to show what officers were searching for in the case have been sealed and what was seized as evidence have been sealed.

[...]

11 APox  Tue, May 17, 2011 12:56:39pm

Does anyone HONESTLY believe that if there was some type of blaring police siren and loudspeaker and it was glaringly obvious it was police that the wife and child would be hiding like they were, and a man would grab an AR-15 and run down the stairs with his family around him ready to shoot it out with the cops?

Please.

12 Ogami Itto  Tue, May 17, 2011 12:57:25pm
The SWAT team will not disclose the nature of the search warrent they apparently were operating on, nor even if this was the correct house although it was the correct block

Well at least these jackbooted assholes got the block right.

13 APox  Tue, May 17, 2011 12:57:28pm

"Guerena did not fire a shot and his gun had the safety on, deputies said, after initially saying he had fired on the SWAT officers."

Haha. It's really pathetic.

14 APox  Tue, May 17, 2011 1:07:49pm

Audio clip of 911 call from wife after husband is shot dead

So they kill him, then go outside, and leave the wife to call 911 trying to get help for her husband who is bleeding out from getting shot 60 times..

This is awful to listen to this audio clip.

15 APox  Tue, May 17, 2011 1:08:46pm

re: #14 APox

It's a sad thing to hear these worthless dispatchers interrogate her over the phone about where the police are as her husband is DYING. Get him HELP. Sigh.

16 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Tue, May 17, 2011 1:10:07pm

re: #3 ausador

I can see the application for that warrant now, "Well your honor we have heard from our informants that there is a dealer on that street so we want to raid all the houses with "No Knock" warrants, just sign here OK?"

They don't have to get any steeenking warrants anymore.

Thanks, drug war!

17 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Tue, May 17, 2011 1:13:28pm

Civilian SWAT needs to be stripped of anything remotely military in nature until

1) They become subject to the UCMJ while using it

2) Their training is brought in line with military standards

3) They learn some decent tactics

4) They quit refusing to spend money on things that matter more than sexy weaponry that they don't have sufficient training or any legitimate need for - for instance, fiber scopes and surveillance gear. You know, for unimportant things like target verification and video evidence.

18 Buck  Tue, May 17, 2011 4:24:59pm

Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik.... where have I heard that name before?

19 APox  Tue, May 17, 2011 4:49:59pm

re: #18 Buck

Good question, I hadn't realized this is the same Sheriff that spoke out against the vitriol in political language after the Gifford's shooting.

20 BishopX  Tue, May 17, 2011 5:30:43pm

re: #17 negativ

Or at least helmet cams. Having unedited audio and video of everything the officers saw, heard and said would make all of this a whole lot clearer.

Navy seals use them dutch special forces use them. I see no reason why swat shouldn't. They have the same type of mission profile (prep at a distance, quick insertion, do the job and get out) and the components aren't terribly secret.

21 Semper Fi  Tue, May 17, 2011 5:37:45pm

What a sad story.

22 ThomasLite  Tue, May 17, 2011 7:49:07pm

what the... a no-knock warrant for an entire street/block? employing this kind of firepower? what were they expecting, a fuckin' army-in-a-box waiting for them?

maybe at least this will show people what a bad idea no-knock warrants for anything else than an arrest of a violent suspect is... at least then some good would come out of this mess.

re: #17 negativ

making them subject to the UCMJ would be a bit of a problem. the Posse Comitatus Act prohibits the use of the US military in law-and-order matters AFAIK; being subject to the UCMJ and not being US military doesn't fly.
I think, that is.
aside from that, +1000 on the rest of that post. undertrained trigger-happy law enforcement officers with manhood-compensatory firepower is never a good idea.
actually, down here in the Netherlands the SWAT-like units are mostly made up of (I think former) marines. when they see any use (which is hardly ever, thank God) it's in a surgically precise and professional way.
some kinds of violent intervention are just better off in the hands of those with military training, you're right there.

23 Bubblehead II  Tue, May 17, 2011 9:02:17pm

Yet, again, another branch is thrown on the fire of discontent. And yes, this will be, again, ignored.

Just how many people must die in useless raids such as this?

Our Government at all levels is out of control.

I despair that we as a Nation will continue on this path, only to meet our own demise.

////// Almost makes me want to believe in a God(es)

24 boondocksaint  Wed, May 18, 2011 4:25:20am

When are people going to see that the war on drugs is pointless?

25 wrenchwench  Wed, May 18, 2011 12:02:43pm

Dupnik's department defends silence:

The Pima County Sheriff's Department issued a statement today trying to explain its policy regarding the delay in information about the SWAT raid in which a Tucson man was killed.

Here is an unedited copy of today's statement:

Officer Involved Shooting - Update

May 18, 2011

"As a result of the need for information surrounding the shooting of Jose Guerena by members of the Pima Regional SWAT Team, the public has received misinformation and emotionally-charged speculation. ...

[...]

Go read it all.

26 wrenchwench  Fri, May 20, 2011 2:59:21pm

New info from lawyers representing some SWAT team members, and the lawyer for the Guerena family.


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